Balance in Communication

[ITS]

Read the forum, Effective Greek (http://www.itscourses.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=130&sid=2e9f202e5d73e18997a0aa19e7b72069) (from our former Greek course) and answer the following: Some complain that their pastor or teacher overwhelms them with Greek detail and seems arrogant when teaching from the Greek. How much Greek is too much Greek, and what can one do to avoid appearing condescending in delivery? (The previous forum, "Effective Greek" will indicate differing opinions related to this issue.)

[Maria]

There are multiple venues in which teaching of Greek may be accomplished in the church setting. Certainly, the Sunday sermon offers opportunity to highlight important nuances that the translation alone might miss. Mounce's book prefaces each chapter with just such tidbits of insight. On this scale, it isn't too overwhelming for most people. Sunday service isn't the time to launch into wholesale lessons in grammar, but important doctrines and background may be clarified by introducing a word or two.

As for not appearing arrogant or being overbearing, the best antidote (and most easily identified by our people) is to be a humble, broken minister of the Gospel. We won't appear arrogant if we are not. We won't be pushy if we share our excitement and joy without inferrence that anyone who is spiritually mature would and should be a serious sudent of Greek.

Yet, for those in our churches who have a hunger and thirst for the Word and a deeper understanding of it, the availability of audio courses and study guides allow us to encourage them in self study. If I can learn enough Greek to be profitable to my understanding of the Word, so can many of my people. They should not be robbed of this blessing for lack of knowing that it is available to them.

[Derek Hiebert]

I would answer this by posing a couple questions:
1) Did Jesus, Paul, Peter or any other NT author overwhelm their learners with Hebrew detail when they taught and wrote their texts, quoting from and alluding to the OT Septuagint?[/b] Surely, Paul must have had to pull the same maneuvers with the LXX from Hebrew as we do with English from Greek (and Hebrew). But did he pull out his lexical prowess in front of everybody when he was preach/teaching the gospel? One can only speculate. He certainly didn't do it much, if at all, in his epistles. (Someone please correct on this if I'm way off). Jesus never did it in his Sermon on the Mount or his parables or any other teaching. From the methods we have in Scripture, it seems it would be profitable not to mention too much language detail and jargon in our preaching/teaching of the gospel. A simple, "This is what this word can mean in the original language..." or "The force of this verb suggests..." or something like that. In my view, forget all the extra details and jargon, its just too confusing and excessive, which leads to my next point.

2) People, Christian or not, need to hear the gospel in their plain, common language, not be loaded down with information that has nothing to do with their real-life sin, junk, weaknesses, pain, brokenness, joys, victories and defeats. Again I ask, what did Jesus and Paul emphasize in their teachings? Follow their lead.

3) The average sermon-listener only remembers and comprehends maybe ten percent of what was said from the pulpit. Let's try to increase that by lessening the amount of language detail, and get to real-life detail that hits them where they're at.

4) The mandate and beauty of the gospel is such that we must and can effectively proclaim it and explain it in the common vernacular of the culture for which it is contextualized. Too much Greek (or Hebrew) and not enough of the culture's own language will hurt our efforts to communicate the redemption in Jesus.

5) What are we trying to accomplish in church? What's our mission? Is our mission solely to raise up language students for the kingdom of God, or to equip literal missionaries (even in America) who we can send out with the purest understanding of the gospel, proclaiming, explaining and contextualizing the gospel in the language of the culture for which they are sent? The answer to that question will determine how much Greek we talk about in the church? My answer to that question is the latter, which means for me, that while I might use as much of my Greek learning as possible when preparing my preaching/teaching, I will prohibit myself from talking about how I came to parse such and such of verb, or the nuances of the word pros, or the Granville-Sharpe rule, or whatever. Keep it simple, keep it real, keep it moving, keep it in English, in Jesus' name.

In conclusion, in my humble and modest opinion, use Greek to your advantage in preparation, stick to street-level English in your proclamation, and when you finally get to heaven, you can redeem all that time you missed on earth, and talk Greek with Jesus till your heart's content.

[Schmiedc]

Read the forum, Effective Greek (http://www.itscourses.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=130&sid=2e9f202e5d73e18997a0aa19e7b72069) (from our former Greek course) and answer the following: Some complain that their pastor or teacher overwhelms them with Greek detail and seems arrogant when teaching from the Greek. How much Greek is too much Greek, and what can one do to avoid appearing condescending in delivery? (The previous forum, "Effective Greek" will indicate differing opinions related to this issue.)

The question of how much Greek is too much Greek is a good one! Two situations come to mind immediately. The first is where the pastor really knows Greek but tries to overwhelm everyone with it. The seond is where the Pastor does not know Greek but tries to pretend that he does. Both are objectionable to many.

The first situation can be easily corrected if the Pastor understands that his approach is overbearing and resented. People do not care whether a verb is in the imperfect, aorist or perfect tense. They do care whether the action is continuous, completed or indefinite - or at least they should. This can all be explained in congregational friendly language empasizing function not technicalities.

The second situation is the one I have observed frequently. Here the Pastor does a superficial word study and then tries to pass himself off as Bill Mounce. Frequently the word study adds nothing to the sermon or understanding of the passage. Many also make foolish incorrect statements illustrating to those who know Greek that they don't. Examples include suggesting that the action of a verb is punctiliar because it is in the aorist. Another example is confusing tense and voice by suggesting that a verb is in the active tense. You have to wonder what the true motives of such preaching and teaching are?

It is obvious to me that the Pator benefits greatly from a knowledge of Greek when preaching the Word. However he should not wear his credentials on his sleeves. Rather he should take his knowledge and learn to explain it functionally in beneficial ways to his congregation. They will appreciate this. After all no one I know wants a Greek lesson every Sunday. And no one I know wants to here incorrect usage of Greek either!

[Schmiedc]

There are multiple venues in which teaching of Greek may be accomplished in the church setting. Certainly, the Sunday sermon offers opportunity to highlight important nuances that the translation alone might miss. Mounce's book prefaces each chapter with just such tidbits of insight. On this scale, it isn't too overwhelming for most people. Sunday service isn't the time to launch into wholesale lessons in grammar, but important doctrines and background may be clarified by introducing a word or two.

As for not appearing arrogant or being overbearing, the best antidote (and most easily identified by our people) is to be a humble, broken minister of the Gospel. We won't appear arrogant if we are not. We won't be pushy if we share our excitement and joy without inferrence that anyone who is spiritually mature would and should be a serious sudent of Greek.

Yet, for those in our churches who have a hunger and thirst for the Word and a deeper understanding of it, the availability of audio courses and study guides allow us to encourage them in self study. If I can learn enough Greek to be profitable to my understanding of the Word, so can many of my people. They should not be robbed of this blessing for lack of knowing that it is available to them.


I agree completely with Maria in that it is all about balance. Congregations need to be challeneged to learn and obey Scripture but they need to not be totally turned off in the process.

Arrogance and pride are both sins to be avoided. Humility is the key to all effective ministry as first demonstrated by Jesus Himself. People can sense one's motives. Is this pastor trying to help me better understand Scripture? Or is He trying to impress me with how smart and educated he is? These are two basic questions with revealing answers. All who preach or teach the Word of God would be well advised to heed the difference.

However, congregations need to be challeneged to learn and obey the Word of God. The pastor must lead in this process. If not the pastor then who? A litle mind stretching from time to time is OK including Greek usage. However, the intent must be to encourage congregational development and learning of the Word. It is all about motives. The pastor knows his motives. Of course the congregation will know soon enough too!

[musselma]

Read the forum, Effective Greek (http://www.itscourses.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=130&sid=2e9f202e5d73e18997a0aa19e7b72069) (from our former Greek course) and answer the following: Some complain that their pastor or teacher overwhelms them with Greek detail and seems arrogant when teaching from the Greek. How much Greek is too much Greek, and what can one do to avoid appearing condescending in delivery? (The previous forum, "Effective Greek" will indicate differing opinions related to this issue.)

Almost any Greek is too much Greek. I think of Martin Luther who challenged the church to take the gospel down from the rafters and let it find its home in the hearts of common people. Jesus himself was angered by the actions of the Pharisees because they made serving God such a burden. Not just as pastors, but as Christians, each of us should make sure we are making the Gospel plain for all who hear it.

Jesus spoke in parables because that was something simple farmers would understand. Paul acted Jewish around Jews and Greek around Greeks because that is how you reach people. You do not reach people by displaying your own knowledge.

I liken this to the experience of listening to a doctor who continues to throw around medical jargon when a patient just wants to know what is wrong and what will make it better. Greek is the jargon of scholars and preachers, but we should not put the gospel into jargon. We should make it accessible for everyone.

[musselma]

I would answer this by posing a couple questions:
1) Did Jesus, Paul, Peter or any other NT author overwhelm their learners with Hebrew detail when they taught and wrote their texts, quoting from and alluding to the OT Septuagint?[/b] Surely, Paul must have had to pull the same maneuvers with the LXX from Hebrew as we do with English from Greek (and Hebrew). But did he pull out his lexical prowess in front of everybody when he was preach/teaching the gospel? One can only speculate. He certainly didn't do it much, if at all, in his epistles. (Someone please correct on this if I'm way off). Jesus never did it in his Sermon on the Mount or his parables or any other teaching. From the methods we have in Scripture, it seems it would be profitable not to mention too much language detail and jargon in our preaching/teaching of the gospel. A simple, "This is what this word can mean in the original language..." or "The force of this verb suggests..." or something like that. In my view, forget all the extra details and jargon, its just too confusing and excessive, which leads to my next point.

2) People, Christian or not, need to hear the gospel in their plain, common language, not be loaded down with information that has nothing to do with their real-life sin, junk, weaknesses, pain, brokenness, joys, victories and defeats. Again I ask, what did Jesus and Paul emphasize in their teachings? Follow their lead.

3) The average sermon-listener only remembers and comprehends maybe ten percent of what was said from the pulpit. Let's try to increase that by lessening the amount of language detail, and get to real-life detail that hits them where they're at.

4) The mandate and beauty of the gospel is such that we must and can effectively proclaim it and explain it in the common vernacular of the culture for which it is contextualized. Too much Greek (or Hebrew) and not enough of the culture's own language will hurt our efforts to communicate the redemption in Jesus.

5) What are we trying to accomplish in church? What's our mission? Is our mission solely to raise up language students for the kingdom of God, or to equip literal missionaries (even in America) who we can send out with the purest understanding of the gospel, proclaiming, explaining and contextualizing the gospel in the language of the culture for which they are sent? The answer to that question will determine how much Greek we talk about in the church? My answer to that question is the latter, which means for me, that while I might use as much of my Greek learning as possible when preparing my preaching/teaching, I will prohibit myself from talking about how I came to parse such and such of verb, or the nuances of the word pros, or the Granville-Sharpe rule, or whatever. Keep it simple, keep it real, keep it moving, keep it in English, in Jesus' name.

In conclusion, in my humble and modest opinion, use Greek to your advantage in preparation, stick to street-level English in your proclamation, and when you finally get to heaven, you can redeem all that time you missed on earth, and talk Greek with Jesus till your heart's content.

I wholeheartedly agree with Derek. One of the verses that has challenged me is Titus 2:10, which says, “…so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.” My job is to make the Gospel attractive. A regular Sunday service is the opportunity I have to speak to the most people at one time, and I should not waste it by making myself attractive with a grand display of my study and knowledge. Instead I should make the gospel attractive. While understanding Greek is important to me, I attract people based on what’s important to them. I would say the majority of people do not hold an knowledge of Greek in high importance. The opportunities pastors have to speak are too far and few between to waste time explaining Greek.

[its_brad]

Posted By: terryh
Post Date: Sat Jun 02, 2007 10:19 am
Post Subject: Re: Balance in Communication
ITS wrote:
Read the forum, Effective Greek (from our former Greek course) and answer the following: Some complain that their pastor or teacher overwhelms them with Greek detail and seems arrogant when teaching from the Greek. How much Greek is too much Greek, and what can one do to avoid appearing condescending in delivery? (The previous forum, "Effective Greek" will indicate differing opinions related to this issue.)>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Often times the quickest and most effective way to disconnect from a group of 'catechumens' is to interject a Greek teaching. The old cliche 'it is Greek to me' is a powerful influencer in what the 'hearer' is willing to accept. It is all too easy to run away from presenting Greek as a teaching tool because of this truism. But we must not tread in retreat or succumb to the fear of not connecting with the Gospel because of this pot hole. I believe there are two elements that need to be considered when attempting to deliver effectively any aspect of Greek as a teaching tool. The first is context...how is it used in the scripture and is it important to explain the nuances and depth to preach this particular Gospel story. If the text is calling out an explanation (nee exclamation) as needful to the overall message, then by all means interject this element to the preachment. The second element is 'audience analysis'. To whom are you speaking? is a question I beleive one should always ask themselves in the preparation of the message. If it is a parish under your shepherding then by all means you will have a pulse on their ability to assimilate a point of Greek and you will know what is effective OR when it will be effective to introduce Greek teachings OR how to present it. I know of pastors who are firmly grounded in THEIR understanding of the Gospel truth. They also think that regardless of how it is recieved the use of Greek as a teaching tool has no boundaries. Me thinks this speaks of arrogance and condescension. I like Derek Hiebert's analogy of the NT authors using Hebrew as a teaching tool to those who didn't understand the nuances and depth it may bring to the text. While it might be true it would be like giving meat to those who need milk. In conclusion, despite the challenges to using Greek as a teaching tool it is also necessary to do so at the appropriate time and in the appropriate manner.

[Scott Gill]

The best way to avoid appearing condescending is to not be condescending. Apprehension about appearing condescending should not prevent teaching from Greek, however.

The fact is Greek is rich in nuance and often communicates truths about God’s nature and grace in ways that are superior to English. A good Greek teacher will bring along his listeners in a process of discovery as together they unlock the meaning of different words, phrases and passages.

Know your audience in order to avoid overwhelming with too much detail, but don’t keep them from the feast because of false apprehensions.

[Scott Gill]

The question of how much Greek is too much Greek is a good one! Two situations come to mind immediately. The first is where the pastor really knows Greek but tries to overwhelm everyone with it. The seond is where the Pastor does not know Greek but tries to pretend that he does. Both are objectionable to many.

The first situation can be easily corrected if the Pastor understands that his approach is overbearing and resented. People do not care whether a verb is in the imperfect, aorist or perfect tense. They do care whether the action is continuous, completed or indefinite - or at least they should. This can all be explained in congregational friendly language empasizing function not technicalities.

The second situation is the one I have observed frequently. Here the Pastor does a superficial word study and then tries to pass himself off as Bill Mounce. Frequently the word study adds nothing to the sermon or understanding of the passage. Many also make foolish incorrect statements illustrating to those who know Greek that they don't. Examples include suggesting that the action of a verb is punctiliar because it is in the aorist. Another example is confusing tense and voice by suggesting that a verb is in the active tense. You have to wonder what the true motives of such preaching and teaching are?

It is obvious to me that the Pator benefits greatly from a knowledge of Greek when preaching the Word. However he should not wear his credentials on his sleeves. Rather he should take his knowledge and learn to explain it functionally in beneficial ways to his congregation. They will appreciate this. After all no one I know wants a Greek lesson every Sunday. And no one I know wants to here incorrect usage of Greek either!


The qualifications for elder stated in Titus and I Timothy cause me to respond to Schmeidc and the idea that only the Pastor can preach the word. These passages are explicit that all elders are to be “able to teach,” in addition to all of their other qualities and abilities.

While not suggesting that the pastor abdicate his role as teacher of the Word, I think it is healthy to realize that God has gifted others in this area, and that the elders can be utilized to help teach the scriptures to the congregation. It may be that the most appropriate medium for this will be in Sunday School and home groups, but mobilizing the gifted teachers from among the elders will be of enormous value to the congregation.

Also, the balance needs to be maintained between the pastor’s responsibility as teacher, and that of shepherd. Peter exhorts the leaders to care for the flock, not just instruct them. Paul’s example among the Thessalonians is worth emulating, as he became father, mother and brother to the believers there.

[John A. Cochran]

Some complain that their pastor or teacher overwhelms them with Greek detail and seems arrogant when teaching from the Greek. How much Greek is too much Greek, and what can one do to avoid appearing condescending in delivery?

As highlighted numerous times in the previous posts, the question "How much Greek is Too Much" ultimately returns to a matter of the heart. What is the purpose of using / siting references to the original language in one's sermon, one's teaching? Does the reference truly add value to the discussion and presentation, or ultimately is the reference there only for the purpose of veiled, or unfortunately not-so-veiled pride? Does the reference to the Greek point to and bring glory to God, His word and His message, or does the reference to the original langue simply draw further attention to the messenger? All too often the messenger uses references to Greek to merely try to impress his audience that he has done some level of detailed study, or for the purpose of trying to give further weight or validity to his teaching.

In and of itself, what is interesting, however, is that the use of the original language to give weight to the validity of one’s presentation indeed should be the true purpose of such references. However, the caution must be given, is it really necessary? It would seem that the most critical times where such references are valid would be when the translation being used seems to miss or deviate, due to the limitations of the English language, from the true underlying meaning or inference of the passage.

Again, however, the caution must be given; the most frequent use of such inferences is often in the area of application. And, if there is one area where the church has failed consistently in its teaching, it has been the improper application of the truth of Scripture to every day life. How often have we experienced the age old “proof texting” to prove a personal preference rather than a true Biblical precept?

When your boil it all down, the simplest guideline would seem to be, error on the side of “too few” references to the original language vs “too many.” And, when references are made, be sure that they are absolutely necessary to clarify a point that without such reference would be confusing or lead to misapplication of the true intent of the text.

John A. Cochran
Denver Seminary
10/22/07

[ERIC MARK SHEPARD]

I believe I’ve learned through my years of various ministry that you can successfully use the Greek language in many situations and depth of teaching as long as you take into account the abilities and needs of those your trying to instruct. If your goal is to minister to the needs, and to bring about change and growth, this in itself should keep you from overwhelming people with knowledge that is unprofitable.
I took two semesters of Greek at a Bible Institute that I attended in 1983. I enjoyed the language and found knowing it, useful in resourcing the work of Greek scholars and Greek based commentaries. The insights that I gained helped me greatly in understanding some of the than perplexing statements in the scriptures, and to bring that understanding to the congregations and the people I taught and discipled.
After I graduated school from 1983 to 1993 I worked mainly with the homeless population in Brooklyn and in Manhattan New York. I became a Bible teacher to many of these homeless drug addicts that we brought to Christ, and I found that my need for Greek was very limited. Though here and there I did use a main word in a passage if I thought it would bring a greater insight to my hearers; words like atonement, propitiation, remission, or redemption, terms dealing with salvation.
From 1993 to 1999 I worked in a church in Buffalo that had a 12 month residential ministry that took in men (some from the Church I worked in Manhattan and some from area Churches) who wanted to learn more about Jesus and the Christian life. Much of the teaching we did was on a deeper level and covered many areas of Christian teaching, salvation, new birth, baptism, The Holy Spirit, resurrection, sanctification and the Second coming of Christ. As well as what it meant to live as a spirit filled man; topics like prayer, study, self discipline, marriage, sexuality, love, family, divorce and remarriage. Once more the education of these men was minimal but I found that their questions and the depth of study I had to do on these subjects needed a greater understanding of the original language. I wasn’t teaching classes in Greek but many times I needed to bring in some of the authorities on the Greek language that I used to explain what I was teaching. As part of our teaching program we taught these men how to use Bible tools in their studies, some of these using the Greek language.
In 2000 I pioneered a church in upstate New York and most of my congregation since that time has been mostly un-churched Christians from various Christian backgrounds and teachings, as well as some new believers. I began to notice in our Bible studies that though some had been Christians for some time they did not have an accurate understanding of the scriptures. In many of the main doctrines and teachings of the Bible I found myself being challenged to what was the true teaching of the word of God. Doctrines such as salvation, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the rapture of the church, the role of the Church in the life of the believer, subjects such as predestination, the Trinity even evangelism. I may have been able to get by on a smattering of knowing and using my knowledge of the Greek language here and there when I was teaching the homeless in Manhattan and even in teaching those men in the residential program (though I did use it, and found it to be profitable even among homeless drug addicts) but because I had not kept up with my Greek studies over a 20 year period (nor had any of the Senior Pastors I worked under encouraged me to do so) I found myself unable to adequately defend and teach what I believed to be God’s truth. This is one of the reasons that after 20 years of ministry I went back to school.
I still don’t teach Greek classes during my preaching but over the last eight years I have been back in my Greek commentaries more than ever, so that I can not only rightly divide the word of God but so that I can defend it from the winds of doctrine that blow through the church. I’ve made it a point to challenge God’s people to learn how to do more than just read the scriptures but to know why they believe the doctrines of the Church. That includes getting some knowledge of the Greek language so that they can use basic bible tools and study helps.

[ERIC MARK SHEPARD]

The best way to avoid appearing condescending is to not be condescending. Apprehension about appearing condescending should not prevent teaching from Greek, however.

The fact is Greek is rich in nuance and often communicates truths about God’s nature and grace in ways that are superior to English. A good Greek teacher will bring along his listeners in a process of discovery as together they unlock the meaning of different words, phrases and passages.

Know your audience in order to avoid overwhelming with too much detail, but don’t keep them from the feast because of false apprehensions.

Scott’s insight is very much the right perspective of this question, if the preacher and teacher continually seek the Lord to have the right motive of heart a condescending attitude should not be a problem. You can be just as condescending without using any Greek in your expounding of the scriptures if you have the wrong motive of preaching and teaching the word.

To know and use the original languages of the Scriptures is a valuable tool that can help both the speaker and his hearer’s better understand what God has written to us.

Knowing your audience and learning to use a mature discernment will help the preacher to not miss the mark.