Critique "Why Egypt for the Capitivty?"

[ITS]

Critique Waltke's conclusions on "Why Egypt for the Captivity?" (Lesson3). Apply a principle for today's church.

[Eric]

Critique Waltke's conclusions on "Why Egypt for the Captivity?" (Lesson3). Apply a principle for today's church.

Egypt was a good place for Israel to be in captivity for several reasons. First, the Egyptian culture was not about to pollute itself with Israelite blood, so not much inter marrying took place. This ensured the purity of the Israelite blood line for those several hundred years. Egypt also did not try and inculcate the Israelites, so they were allowed to worship Yahweh and follow their traditional praqctices. in this way, Israelite worship was kept true to Yahweh's ways. Third, the nation of Israel grew fron several hundred to over 1 million strong while in captivity, so the captivity increased their numbers exponentially. Overall, it seems God knew what He was doing.

[Keith]

It is quite possible that if the Israelites had gone back to the land of Canaan after the famine was over, the Israelites may have died off both physically as well as spiritually. Physically, the people may have intermarried with the Canaanites to the point that Israel was no longer a distinct people. Spiritual, since the Canaanites had their own deities that they were not so eager to give up, marrying a Canaanite was, in a sense, ?marrying? the Canaanite deities.
On the other hand, the Egyptians were not as syncretistic as the Canaanites. In fact, Waltke maintains that they were extremely separatistic (See Gen. 43:32; 46:34). So I don?t think Waltke is reading too much into Scripture by concluding that Egypt?s ?separatist mentality insured the identity of Israel.?
One principle that can be applied from this is that Christians should not intermarry with non-Christians. Of course 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 can be used to support this principle also.

[Keith]

There is not much that I can really think of to say in reply to Eric?s answer. He and I have reached similar conclusions on ?Why Egypt for the Captivity?? My only ?contention? is with his statement, ?? in this way, Israelite worship was kept true to Yahweh?s ways.? Actually the Bible is silent for most of the time period between the Patriarchs and Moses, so we don?t know how ?true to Yahweh?s ways? Israel?s worship was in this time frame. Then again, I do agree with Eric?s concluding statement, ?Overall, it seems God knew what He was doing.?

[Hamelink]

God had a plan like He does today as well. God has always wanted a separate people. He wanted a people who were peculiar. Egypt was part of this plan for God's people. It ensured purity or separatism. God wanted His people to be holy. He did not want them to intermarry. This culture allowed for them not to. He wanted them to follow and serve Yahweh. In their captivity, God was doing a work. He was making a people. In addition, the nation grew. The Israelites were also in a school of learning. God was working out His redemptive plan. In persecution or captivity, the church grows. He wanted His people to see that they must worship Him and Him alone and not the other deities.

[Hamelink]

Critique Waltke's conclusions on "Why Egypt for the Captivity?" (Lesson3). Apply a principle for today's church.

Egypt was a good place for Israel to be in captivity for several reasons. First, the Egyptian culture was not about to pollute itself with Israelite blood, so not much inter marrying took place. This ensured the purity of the Israelite blood line for those several hundred years. Egypt also did not try and inculcate the Israelites, so they were allowed to worship Yahweh and follow their traditional praqctices. in this way, Israelite worship was kept true to Yahweh's ways. Third, the nation of Israel grew fron several hundred to over 1 million strong while in captivity, so the captivity increased their numbers exponentially. Overall, it seems God knew what He was doing.

I agree with Eric wholeheartedly. I think this makes a lot of sense. There is not much I can say as stated by another writer. God was working in the Israelites. This was part of God's plan. Overall, God was doing it.

[KyleTardiff]

When compared to the other nations present during the ANE period Egypt was the perfect choice for Israel to be held in captivity and to develop as a nation. For example if one were to compare the nation of Egypt to the people that inhabited the land of Canaan one would see a very distinct difference. The inhabitants of Canaan would absorb every society they encountered by absorbing their culture and adding it to their own. The end result was that the culture that was absorbed was eventually lost because its uniqueness was watered down by the acceptance of the other cultures that were in the area.
On the other hand, Egypt was a very separated society. It was very elitist and would not accept outsiders. As a result of this when Israel was held captive they did not lose their distinctiveness as the children of God. Instead, because of the rigidness of Egyptian culture concerning other cultures they were not able to be absorbed as part of the Egyptian culture or to absorb the Egyptian culture as well. Egypt was the perfect incubator in which the nation of Israel could be developed. It had the resources to provide for the people but more importantly it was a place where the nation could grow without the people losing their identity. Compared with other nations of the ANE period you would not see significant intermarriage among the different people groups. For the most parts Egyptians kept to them selves socially and this allowed Israel to maintain its identity while in captivity over a 400 year period.

[pmathias]

Critique Waltke's conclusions on "Why Egypt for the Captivity?" (Lesson3). Apply a principle for today's church.

Dr. Waltke points to several reasons why it was good that the Israelites were taken captives in Egypt. The most important reason was because the Egyptians would not integrate themselves with other cultures. This was different from the Canaanite culture, who believed that integration with other cultures was acceptable. The fact that the Egyptians would not assimilate with the Israelites insured that Israel could keep its cultural identity, despite the fact that they were captives in a foreign land.

[pmathias]

I agree with Kyle's posting. God obviously had a purpose for wanting to keep the Israelites pure as a nation. While they did not always keep their spiritual lives pure during their history, God did allow them to keep their national identity pure during their captivity in Egypt.

[Scott]

I have often wondered at the seemingly incongruous placement of Genesis 38 in the Joseph account. Dr. Waltke’s assessment that Genesis 38 revealed that the 4th and 5th generations after Abraham were being totally assimilated into the Canaanite culture as demonstrated by the actions of Judah and his children appears to be a reasonable and accurate explanation. In order for God to keep the patriarchal family and eventual nation separate from surrounding nations, it was necessary for God to send them into Egypt where they would remain distinct from the Egyptians rather than merge into the syncretism of their Canaanite neighbors. In applying the principle for today, I do think it is important that our lives give witness to our Christian faith by our actions and attitudes which are often very different than the world around us (1 Peter 4:1-5).

[Scott]

When compared to the other nations present during the ANE period Egypt was the perfect choice for Israel to be held in captivity and to develop as a nation. For example if one were to compare the nation of Egypt to the people that inhabited the land of Canaan one would see a very distinct difference. The inhabitants of Canaan would absorb every society they encountered by absorbing their culture and adding it to their own. The end result was that the culture that was absorbed was eventually lost because its uniqueness was watered down by the acceptance of the other cultures that were in the area.
On the other hand, Egypt was a very separated society. It was very elitist and would not accept outsiders. As a result of this when Israel was held captive they did not lose their distinctiveness as the children of God. Instead, because of the rigidness of Egyptian culture concerning other cultures they were not able to be absorbed as part of the Egyptian culture or to absorb the Egyptian culture as well. Egypt was the perfect incubator in which the nation of Israel could be developed. It had the resources to provide for the people but more importantly it was a place where the nation could grow without the people losing their identity. Compared with other nations of the ANE period you would not see significant intermarriage among the different people groups. For the most parts Egyptians kept to them selves socially and this allowed Israel to maintain its identity while in captivity over a 400 year period.


I agree with Kyle's answer and will only clarify what I think he is saying with regards to assimilating by intermarriage: "Compared with other nations of the ANE period you would not see significant intermarriage among the different people groups." By this, I believe he is speaking of the different people groups that are living in the separatist Egyptian culture. I totally agree.

[its_brad]

Posted By: ERIC SHEPARD
Post Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:48 pm
Post Subject: Re: Critique "Why Egypt for the Capitivty?"
ITS wrote:
Critique Waltke's conclusions on "Why Egypt for the Captivity?" (Lesson3). Apply a principle for today's church.There are many reasons that God choose for Abrahams descendants to go into Egypt during the time of Joseph until Moses. First not unlike our culture today the nations of Canaan where an open society who were drawing and assimilating people from surrounding cultures, as people immigrated there looking for fertile land and abundance of food. Egypt did not have this problem of mass immigration and because of this did not adopt a civilization of assimilation as they defended their borders through a more advanced form of Government, military and culture. To the Egyptians the Israelites, who were shepherds, were viewed as detestable. As the Church in a similar situation it is no longer our nationality but our spirituality that will keep us a separated people. Paul speaking to the Corinthian church comments on this aspect of the Christian life. “To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task?” But in view of salvation history God also place Israel in Egypt to prepare them to become not only the people of God but the people of God’s Law and Tabernacle worship. Moses who would write the law was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians. Bezalel and Oholiab who would lead the building of the tabernacle probably also were trained as craftsman from their work in Egyptian culture and society (Exo 35:34-36:1) Last God was giving to the Israelites a heritage by bringing judgment on the gods of the Egyptians and preparing them to face the idols of Canaan. Showing that they of all the nations served the true God and that the gods of the nations and their idols were powerless against the Lord.

[its_brad]

Posted By: ERIC SHEPARD
Post Date: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:52 pm
Post Subject: Re: Critique "Why Egypt for the Capitivty?"

In reply to Scott, good observation on Genesis 38 and the 4th and 5th generations after Abraham. Shows how close Abraham’s descendants were to losing their identity as the people of God. In the formation process of the nation how important it was for God to sovereignly protect them from assimilation and extinction. Yet isn’t that how the Lord has always dealt with the remnant of his people, He always gives us a way of escape (1 Cor 10:13). Today as the church we have no Egypt for God to hide us in to keep us a separate people; instead we are hid in Christ (Col 3:3). Jesus prayer in John 17 is not that we would be taken out of the world but that we would be kept from the evil one. How else could we be the witness that the world desperately needs, how else could we be the salt of the earth.

[brady]

Egyptian bondage was necessary because God used it to maintain the separation of the Patriarchs, who were no longer administering God's will; God's Law which was written on their hearts. As Romans 9 speaks of God setting up Pharaoh to reveal His power. God did not make Pharaoh's heart evil, He simply revealed his evilness. The same sun that melts the wax, hardens the clay. It was necessary because the power of God could bring the hearts of the Patriarch's back to the reason He wrote His Law on their hearts.

[Yvana]

“Why Egypt for the Captivity?” The answer to this question has been stated already in this forum. In God’s plan to keep His people separate He had no other choice than to place them in a culture that believed they were so much better than all others that they dared not marry those of another culture. God knew this quite well and for His plan to continue on its course He had to assure that even while in captivity his people would remain separate, so that as they left Egypt they would still be His chosen people and not some mixture of Israel and Egypt that would have in essence created an entire new culture.

If we look around at our society today we see that God has also placed the church in “Egypt” however the Egypt that we now face is quite willing to allow Christians into their circles, and it is up to the Church not get caught up in it. It may actually appear that the Israelites were much safer in Egypt than some of us are in our society today.

[Yvana]

"But in view of salvation history God also place Israel in Egypt to prepare them to become not only the people of God but the people of God’s Law and Tabernacle worship. Moses who would write the law was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians. Bezalel and Oholiab who would lead the building of the tabernacle probably also were trained as craftsman from their work in Egyptian culture and society (Exo 35:34-36:1) Last God was giving to the Israelites a heritage by bringing judgment on the gods of the Egyptians and preparing them to face the idols of Canaan. Showing that they of all the nations served the true God and that the gods of the nations and their idols were powerless against the Lord."



I found this portion of your post very interesting. In that even in Egypt, while trying to keep His people separate God was also teaching them through the Egyptians. You make an interesting point regarding Bezalel and Oholiab and the training they possibly received in Egypt. God is constantly teaching us, even when we are in captivity we need to be aware of His lessons and what He wants us to learn.

[Macatawa]

Critique Waltke's conclusions on "Why Egypt for the Captivity?" (Lesson3). Apply a principle for today's church.

Since God had established earlier in scripture that His people would be slaves for 400 years, I believe there was no better place for Israel to be held in captivity than in Egypt. Unlike the hellinization that occurred for the Jewish people in the New Testament, Egypt did not force its ways upon Israel. Since this was the case, they were allowed to obey the Torah and honor God in the ways He had established for them. The seed of the Jewish people was also kept pure since an Egyptian man had little interest in taking up for himself a Jewish wife. Since this was the case, the identity of God's chosen people was kept in tact as they were allowed to further their religious beliefs. Such a situation is almost unheard of! Yet Yahweh, in His wisdom, kept His people safe within the Egyptian womb. As they were kept safe in terms of their spiritual growth they also were kept safe in such a way that their population could flourish. While the Egyptian people enjoyed the free future slaves they would one day use for labor purposes, God used the Jewish multiplication for good. Through such a situation, Egypt was kept separate from the Jewish people and they were kept separate from the Egyptians. While this was within God's plan it also serves as a reminder to us today. We are to be separate from the world.

[Macatawa]

It is quite possible that if the Israelites had gone back to the land of Canaan after the famine was over, the Israelites may have died off both physically as well as spiritually. Physically, the people may have intermarried with the Canaanites to the point that Israel was no longer a distinct people. Spiritual, since the Canaanites had their own deities that they were not so eager to give up, marrying a Canaanite was, in a sense, ?marrying? the Canaanite deities.
On the other hand, the Egyptians were not as syncretistic as the Canaanites. In fact, Waltke maintains that they were extremely separatistic (See Gen. 43:32; 46:34). So I don?t think Waltke is reading too much into Scripture by concluding that Egypt?s ?separatist mentality insured the identity of Israel.?
One principle that can be applied from this is that Christians should not intermarry with non-Christians. Of course 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 can be used to support this principle also.

I believe Keith is correct about much of what he said. I would add a few other details to the list. First, God had stated in scripture that His chosen people would be held captive for 400 years. Therefore, He also had arranged for the perfect situation whereby the Jewish seed could flourish. Secondly, while Egypt desired to be separate from the Jewish people it would be important to add that this situation kept Israel safe both physically and spiritually. God had arranged an incredible way for His chosen to grow both spiritually and in great number. What the Egyptians used for bad, God used for good. Thirdly, the Egypt was the greatest power on the earth at that time. Therefore, there was no chance that another people would come, defeat the Egyptians, and take the Jewish people as slaves. God had put Israel in the safest place possible to further His plan of salvation.

[Steve_Sterry]

Critique Waltke's conclusions on "Why Egypt for the Captivity?" (Lesson3). Apply a principle for today's church.


What we are talking about here is a land which is so remote that there is no chance that Israel is going to get help from either its friends, neighbors, or relatives. God's chosen people are solely on their own and totally under the influence of their own numbers and their God, Yahweh.


We are talking about a nation that is able to exert not only its strength over the God's people to keep them insulated from the rest of the world, but we are also talking about a nation which, through its military strength, was able to keep the rest of the world from interfering in the affairs of God's chosen people.


Of course, as Dr. Waltke points out, the Egyptians were separatists and therefore would maintain social separation from the captives.


It is obvious from later observations that even the separation provided by the Egyptians did not keep the exiles from straying from their God. This is the lesson that we are still learning today. No matter what God does to keep us in his path, we still stray, we still exhibit our apostasy, and we are still disobedient. A good example can be seen in my church, the Episcopal Church. Those liberals who consider themselves as righteous serve up the social gospel as their idea of obedience to God rather than try to understand that Jesus is much more than a good man to imitate. They deny the doctrine of original sin, and they only pick and choose that which, in the Bible, is relevant to their needs.


So, it looks like we haven't changed much, does it?

[Steve_Sterry]

I believe Keith is correct about much of what he said. I would add a few other details to the list. First, God had stated in scripture that His chosen people would be held captive for 400 years. Therefore, He also had arranged for the perfect situation whereby the Jewish seed could flourish. Secondly, while Egypt desired to be separate from the Jewish people it would be important to add that this situation kept Israel safe both physically and spiritually. God had arranged an incredible way for His chosen to grow both spiritually and in great number. What the Egyptians used for bad, God used for good. Thirdly, the Egypt was the greatest power on the earth at that time. Therefore, there was no chance that another people would come, defeat the Egyptians, and take the Jewish people as slaves. God had put Israel in the safest place possible to further His plan of salvation.

And yet, despite all that God did, almost as soon as the captives left Egypt, they were complaining, blaming, and finding other Gods to worship. Of course, God's plan for salvation included, I am sure, that possibility, because he sent His son to pay for those sins and the sins that we still commit today. Without His perfect plan for salvation, we would still be lost in the desolation of our own dessert of disobedience.

[adamsjb@grace.edu]

I agree with Dr. Waltke's assessment of "why Egypt for the captivity." It was to keep the young nation seperate in the land of Goshen until it had a chance to grow up. The Hebrew children faced the danger of being assimilated into the Canaanite culture. The Egyptians had a seperatist attitude toward the Hebrew herdsman (Gen 43:32; 46:34). This Egyptian mentality insured the growth and development of Israel as a distinct people. Today, it is the church that needs to be seperate in the land of Egypt. The Apostle John writes and implores Christians to be seperate from the world (1 John 2:15-17).

[adamsjb@grace.edu]

Eric, I love your answer. Especialy the part about, how overall, it seems God knew what He was doing. Maybe thats the real spiritual lesson here. God always knows whats best (even a grueling capativity in Egypt) so just trust Him.

[gwoodrum]

God seems to use Egypt as a safe haven at times in history. When Joseph was in danger from his brothers God sent him to Egypt. Egypt seemed to be the safe haven. God protected his people. The Isrealites during the famine, and even though they became slaves, God held them in Egypt. Egypt was a cultural center. In some ways it was the most civilized places in the world at that time. Salvation has also come from Egypt. Just as the Isrealites were given life anew by coming out of Egypt, so we are given opportunity for new life as Jesus came up out of Egypt and became our salvation.

[gwoodrum]

God had a plan like He does today as well. God has always wanted a separate people. He wanted a people who were peculiar. Egypt was part of this plan for God's people. It ensured purity or separatism. God wanted His people to be holy. He did not want them to intermarry. This culture allowed for them not to. He wanted them to follow and serve Yahweh. In their captivity, God was doing a work. He was making a people. In addition, the nation grew. The Israelites were also in a school of learning. God was working out His redemptive plan. In persecution or captivity, the church grows. He wanted His people to see that they must worship Him and Him alone and not the other deities.

I agree that it was all in God's plan. Because Egypt was the strongest and most advanced nation at the time of the famine in Jacob's time, it provided a place of security and relative prosperity for the Isrealites. The nation would survive and grow during its time in Egypt. Eventually, of course, relations grew strained and the security and provision disappeared. This provided an opportunity for God to show Himself as the Deliverer and to forshadow, through the Passover and crossing of the Red Sea, the salvation that would come in Jesus Christ.