Wrath or Love

[ITS]

In Pslam 35 and elsewhere, David prays down the wrath of God on his enemies. How can we reconcile this with the command to "love your enemies"?

[rross]

These prayers of David are not wrong but are good and holy prayers just as the law is good and holy. But today because we know more of the depths of God?s grace, we now know that God is involved with saving these ?enemies.? He is longsuffering toward these and is not willing that any should perish. Today because we have a clearer view of the grace of God and the motives of God and the desires of God, we are not praying for the destruction of the wicked but for their salvation.

[Craig]

In Psalm 35 and elsewhere, David prays down the wrath of God on his enemies. How can we reconcile this with the command to "love your enemies"?

I don't think David was asking for them to be destroyed to some degree. He may have been asking God to foil their plans for destroying the life of an innocent man; and the holiest Christian may offer up such prayers against his adversaries. On the other hand, David was a military leader who depended upon God. He knew God hated (If I could use that word) those who served other Gods and because we know David was a man after God's own heart, I believe he knew God well enough to only be asking that which he knew God would be pleased with or would be accepted by God.

[danielwalker1]

In Pslam 35 and elsewhere, David prays down the wrath of God on his enemies. How can we reconcile this with the command to "love your enemies"? When reading the Psalms we must remember that it was written in the context of the Old Covenant. Within this covenant existed the principle of "an eye for an eye". In essence, David responds in this psalm in the same manner that God, the warrior El, does throughout the Old Testament. We must remember that it was Yahweh who instituted the (Ban) order to completely wipe out His enemies. This was done to that it might prove to unbelieving people His power and might. Consequentely, others would see this result and put their trust in Him. Therefore, David's request could be attributed to an evangelistic motive, but I believe it stimed from retribution. [/i]

[danielwalker1]

In Psalm 35 and elsewhere, David prays down the wrath of God on his enemies. How can we reconcile this with the command to "love your enemies"?

I don't think David was asking for them to be destroyed to some degree. He may have been asking God to foil their plans for destroying the life of an innocent man; and the holiest Christian may offer up such prayers against his adversaries. On the other hand, David was a military leader who depended upon God. He knew God hated (If I could use that word) those who served other Gods and because we know David was a man after God's own heart, I believe he knew God well enough to only be asking that which he knew God would be pleased with or would be accepted by God.

I understand that it is difficult to come to grips with such a violent passage, but we must be aware of the context of the Old testament. We cannot wipe away the message and culture of the Old testament because it does not measure up to current acceptable standards. You make a good point that Davisd was a military leader because manytimes he wiped out the enemies of the Lord by His direct command. We must let the passage speak, no matter our human rules. God is soverign and David was an instrument of His in many of His great campaigns.

[hoeppner]

Taken within their proper context these Psalms tells us a great deal about David’s heart, and why God honoured him. Just like we often do, David cried out for justice. In seeking justice he is not being sinful since he is not immediately acting as judge and jury. He is crying out to the One who is, trusting in him to bring about justice. Dr. Waltke makes a point in the lectures that each time we as Christians pray the Lord’s Prayer, “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”, we are essentially praying the same thing as David. It is a call for Kingdom righteousness, which inherently includes judgment. Establishing God's reign on earth inevitably leads to judgment of the unrighteous.

[hoeppner]

These prayers of David are not wrong but are good and holy prayers just as the law is good and holy. But today because we know more of the depths of God?s grace, we now know that God is involved with saving these ?enemies.? He is longsuffering toward these and is not willing that any should perish. Today because we have a clearer view of the grace of God and the motives of God and the desires of God, we are not praying for the destruction of the wicked but for their salvation.
I would agree with this summary, given that Christ fulfilled that which was more dimly reflected under the old covenant. Yet, I still believe we must be careful not to see too much disparity between the two dispensations. Clearly God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow; and so God would honour a prayer like David’s prayer the same way today as he did in ancient times. I again refer to the remark I made in another posting that states that David’s harsh words against his enemy were ultimately a cry for God’s judgment and reign on earth – the same as Christ taught us to pray in the Lord’s Prayer.

[hoeppner]

In Psalm 35 and elsewhere, David prays down the wrath of God on his enemies. How can we reconcile this with the command to "love your enemies"?

I don't think David was asking for them to be destroyed to some degree. He may have been asking God to foil their plans for destroying the life of an innocent man; and the holiest Christian may offer up such prayers against his adversaries. On the other hand, David was a military leader who depended upon God. He knew God hated (If I could use that word) those who served other Gods and because we know David was a man after God's own heart, I believe he knew God well enough to only be asking that which he knew God would be pleased with or would be accepted by God.
I believe we have to be careful in taming down the prayer of David. On the surface such a Psalm does seem a little embarrassing for us today in the church. Yet, I think when we concentrate on the fact that David is responding to injustice from a disadvantaged, pre-Christ perspective where God’s message and purpose for humanity has yet to be fully revealed and fulfilled in Jesus, we still see a man who is ultimately praying for the will of God to be done on earth. That is the key to the Psalm. It very much resembles “Thy will be done”, as heard in the prayer Jesus taught us. In this sense it is still not wrong today to pray for God’s justice, as in fact we do every time we say the Lord’s Prayer.

[hoeppner]

When reading the Psalms we must remember that it was written in the context of the Old Covenant. Within this covenant existed the principle of "an eye for an eye". In essence, David responds in this psalm in the same manner that God, the warrior El, does throughout the Old Testament. We must remember that it was Yahweh who instituted the (Ban) order to completely wipe out His enemies. This was done to that it might prove to unbelieving people His power and might. Consequentely, others would see this result and put their trust in Him. Therefore, David's request could be attributed to an evangelistic motive, but I believe it stimed from retribution. [/i]
I believe you’re right in your illustration. David is praying from within the old covenant understanding of God. We cannot unfairly project our privileged post-Christ perspective onto him or his prayers. This Psalm is ultimate a prayer for the sovereign reign and justice of God to be enacted upon the unrighteous, the same statement we make when we say the Lord’s Prayer. David, unlike us however, had not heard the message of Christ’s fulfillment of the Law and as a result had a less fully orbed understanding of the grace and mercy that naturally goes hand in hand with judgment, which comprises God’s righteousness. For this reason I would not, however, see David’s request as being evangelistic in that sense, simply because a prayer for judgment - that is God’s judgment - is a righteous prayer in any dispensation.

[jasangborges]

In Pslam 35 and elsewhere, David prays down the wrath of God on his enemies. How can we reconcile this with the command to "love your enemies"?

The precatory psalms in which God's people invoke God to demolish and destroy their enemies can be better understood in light of a few remarks. Firstly, it must be noted that such language is poetic and passionate and not to be read literally (smiting the jaws), though this does not completely get rid of God's wrath. Secondly, such comments are to be understand in the historical context of Israel's covenant with Yahweh- the divine warrior who came down from the clouds of heaven to fight on behalf of his people. Such divine actions were typical in the ANE and serve as culturally appropriate eans for God to reveal his glory to the nations. Thirdly, we must realize that such divine punishment persists to this age and is not an "old-fashioned" theology held only in the OT age. The destruction of those who reject God in this age (both angelic and human beings), will suffer a similar smite in the final day. Yet, we do have a better understanding of God's grace in the New Testament era and are thus compelled to view the nations are potential worshipers of God and not as automatic enemies of Him.

[jasangborges]

Taken within their proper context these Psalms tells us a great deal about David’s heart, and why God honoured him. Just like we often do, David cried out for justice. In seeking justice he is not being sinful since he is not immediately acting as judge and jury. He is crying out to the One who is, trusting in him to bring about justice. Dr. Waltke makes a point in the lectures that each time we as Christians pray the Lord’s Prayer, “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”, we are essentially praying the same thing as David. It is a call for Kingdom righteousness, which inherently includes judgment. Establishing God's reign on earth inevitably leads to judgment of the unrighteous.

I appreciate the theological interpretation of Hoeppner (following Waltke) that such judgment is an inherent aspect of kingdom righteousness and God's reign. This understanding does a good job of maintaining continuity of between the biblical ages, unlike RROSS that functionally claims that not only is our understanding of God different, but God himself is different (ie., longsuffering) in the current dispensation. However, the judgment is called down from heaven because the enemies thwarted the military plans of Israel, not explicitly because their sin violated God's righteousness as in the NT. Although one could argue that opposition to Israel's military plans was a direct offense against God.

[Wise Fisher]

With our head, our first human reaction might be “How could that happen? How could wrath and love reconcile?” If we study the Bible more carefully, we might see these two natures of our Lord and other righteous people of God are perfectly presented in both OT and NT, although they look so incompatible at the first glance. First, I don’t think David here is praying for his own benefits. Secondly, by searching God’s heart, he can feel the wrath of the Lord upon his enemies. Whoever has experienced the love from disciplinary parents can deny such wrath might also an expression of their righteous and faithful love? “Love your enemies” doesn’t mean always being nice to them, even they do something offensive, which love, I think, is just superficial.

[Wise Fisher]

When reading the Psalms we must remember that it was written in the context of the Old Covenant. Within this covenant existed the principle of "an eye for an eye". In essence, David responds in this psalm in the same manner that God, the warrior El, does throughout the Old Testament. We must remember that it was Yahweh who instituted the (Ban) order to completely wipe out His enemies. This was done to that it might prove to unbelieving people His power and might. Consequentely, others would see this result and put their trust in Him. Therefore, David's request could be attributed to an evangelistic motive, but I believe it stimed from retribution. [/i]

Though I recognize the different context that David wrote this psalm under the Old Covenant, when Jesus not yet came to the earth, I don’t think the existing “an eye for an eye” is good enough to reconcile wrath and love by justifying the military reason – in a war, there is no place for such mercy like “turning your cheek”. Why could not David be angry with his enemies also hated by God asking for God’s wrath? There is no real love without justice and wrath on injustice.

[Constance.Johnson]

In Pslam 35 and elsewhere, David prays down the wrath of God on his enemies. How can we reconcile this with the command to "love your enemies"?

David is praying out of his experience for his time in history and culture. He is in a desperate situation and is crying out to God for injustices done to him. As God’s anointed he is on God’s side against evil. We can still love our enemies but hate the behaviour. If the behaviour of our enemies is truly evil or unjust, we do not need to love it. We can still pray for help and pour out our pain to God. David does this using hyperbolie and a recognition that he is dependant on God for victory.

[Constance.Johnson]

With our head, our first human reaction might be “How could that happen? How could wrath and love reconcile?” If we study the Bible more carefully, we might see these two natures of our Lord and other righteous people of God are perfectly presented in both OT and NT, although they look so incompatible at the first glance. First, I don’t think David here is praying for his own benefits. Secondly, by searching God’s heart, he can feel the wrath of the Lord upon his enemies. Whoever has experienced the love from disciplinary parents can deny such wrath might also an expression of their righteous and faithful love? “Love your enemies” doesn’t mean always being nice to them, even they do something offensive, which love, I think, is just superficial.

I agree that “love your enemies” does not always mean doing something nice for them. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do for someone is to not bail them out of their problem. This requires discernment not judgment. For example, someone with an addiction problem may need to be allowed to feel the consequences of their behaviour. It may be that David is not praying for his own vengeance but for God’s consequences to happen. I think that David sees himself as God’s instrument, in need of God’s help.

[cathyl]

Doesn't Dr. Waltke mention this in one of his lectures? I think I remember his saying that when the theocratic warrior David prayed for God to destroy his enemies, he was praying for good to prevail over evil. We pray the same thing every time we pray "Thy will be done upon earth as it is in heaven'. There is nothing wrong with praying for the destruction of evil. However, when we are told to love our enemies, we have mercy on them and forgive them as God has mercy on us and forgives us. Christ's dying for us all teaches us this.

[cathyl]

These prayers of David are not wrong but are good and holy prayers just as the law is good and holy. But today because we know more of the depths of God?s grace, we now know that God is involved with saving these ?enemies.? He is longsuffering toward these and is not willing that any should perish. Today because we have a clearer view of the grace of God and the motives of God and the desires of God, we are not praying for the destruction of the wicked but for their salvation.

This is a nice way to put it. Since Christ's death, we do indeed have "a clearer view of the grace of God". David understood, and so do we, that God is good and that evil should be destroyed - but for us living after Christ, we do have a better idea of God's infinite mercy to those who do what is wrong. How can we not, with Christ's death solely for our salvation? This helps us to be merciful to our own enemies, and to forgive them, as Christ first forgave us.

[Jeff Kuhn]

In Psalm 35 and elsewhere, David prays down the wrath of God on his enemies. How can we reconcile this with the command to "love your enemies"?

There are several aspects that serve to answer this question. First, there is the obvious fact that this is an Old Testament text, where David was living in a theocratic system as the King of Israel. The political and the religious were one element. In Christ we see the call to a trans-national Kingdom of God characterized by sacrificial love and self-sacrifice. Second, the Psalms are representations of the thoughts and feelings of the human author. They are meant to give expression to their take on the situation at hand, not to give guidelines for Christian living. Some of the phrases in the Psalms would be clearly contrary to the teachings of Jesus (Ps. 137:8-9 - O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us- he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.), but they are nonetheless representations of the reality as experienced by the psalmist. Finally, as prayers, they are leaving the ultimate response to God.

[Jeff Kuhn]

With our head, our first human reaction might be “How could that happen? How could wrath and love reconcile?” If we study the Bible more carefully, we might see these two natures of our Lord and other righteous people of God are perfectly presented in both OT and NT, although they look so incompatible at the first glance. First, I don’t think David here is praying for his own benefits. Secondly, by searching God’s heart, he can feel the wrath of the Lord upon his enemies. Whoever has experienced the love from disciplinary parents can deny such wrath might also an expression of their righteous and faithful love? “Love your enemies” doesn’t mean always being nice to them, even they do something offensive, which love, I think, is just superficial.

I agree with much of what you say here. We can not rush to the assumption that love and wrath are mutually exclusive. At the same time, I think we, with the psalmist, have to leave the balancing of the two (including the revelation of our own motives in our desire for wrath) to God. God defines himself to Moses in Exodus 34 as a God who is gracious, compassionate, and rich in love, BUT He does not leave the guilty unpunished. He is the perfect expression of both sinless wrath and endless love.

[Jeff Kuhn]

Doesn't Dr. Waltke mention this in one of his lectures? I think I remember his saying that when the theocratic warrior David prayed for God to destroy his enemies, he was praying for good to prevail over evil. We pray the same thing every time we pray "Thy will be done upon earth as it is in heaven'. There is nothing wrong with praying for the destruction of evil. However, when we are told to love our enemies, we have mercy on them and forgive them as God has mercy on us and forgives us. Christ's dying for us all teaches us this.

Well said. The struggle comes in applying this to our lives today. We are often quick to see our victories as victories of good over evil. That may not always be the case. And as you said, Jesus modeled absorbing evil on the cross and then allowing God to transform evil to goodness through resurrection power - not a strategy that many "kings of the earth" are interested in.

[Jeff Kuhn]

David is praying out of his experience for his time in history and culture. He is in a desperate situation and is crying out to God for injustices done to him. As God’s anointed he is on God’s side against evil. We can still love our enemies but hate the behaviour. If the behaviour of our enemies is truly evil or unjust, we do not need to love it. We can still pray for help and pour out our pain to God. David does this using hyperbolie and a recognition that he is dependant on God for victory.

I like the idea that this is possibly hyperbole. Not sure if that is correct or not, but I like it. But something bothers me about this old idea of hate the sin and love the sinner. I don't disagree with it, I just find it a bit difficult to work out. Love and hate are relational concepts, and we don't have relationships with the sin, just the sinner. Hating the sin seems to spill over on the sinner, at least from what I've observed. If we really loved the sinner wouldn't we be begging God to have mercy on them...even as he has had mercy on us?

[Jeff Kuhn]

Taken within their proper context these Psalms tells us a great deal about David’s heart, and why God honoured him. Just like we often do, David cried out for justice. In seeking justice he is not being sinful since he is not immediately acting as judge and jury. He is crying out to the One who is, trusting in him to bring about justice. Dr. Waltke makes a point in the lectures that each time we as Christians pray the Lord’s Prayer, “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven”, we are essentially praying the same thing as David. It is a call for Kingdom righteousness, which inherently includes judgment. Establishing God's reign on earth inevitably leads to judgment of the unrighteous.

I like your response. Especially the connection to praying for the Kingdom to come. For that to happen there is no way to escape God's wrath. In Revelation 15-16 we see God pouring out his wrath in order to purge His creation of the evil of "Babylon", but he does it patiently, only punishing those who through repeated warnings have refused to surrender to Him. Thy Kingdom Come is a subversive prayer and seeks to undermine the structures of the current world system by replacing them with love for enemies after the example of Christ. Only in this understanding can wrath be holy.

[Lenora Klassen]

I believe that the issue we are dealing with here is the issue of the Sovereignty of God. David's petition to destroy the enemies is a reflection of his desire to wipe out those who are against God, and subsequently are destroying others. In a postmodern world where tolerance is esteemed this is hard to understand. This postmodern world has taught us that to love someone means to allow them to do what they wish. I don't believe this is true. In the honesty of our hearts we want those who do evil against God to be destroyed because they are destroying others who are actually searching for God. It is OK to tell God what our desire is, provided that we understand His sovereign right to destroy or save. We must still love our enemies, but because of their destructive nature, we will want them destroyed (because of our love for those they are destroying).

[Lenora Klassen]

I also wrestle with the idea of loving the sinner but hating the bahavior. I'm not sure how this would change by actions towards them, or my desire (ie. m prayers to God) for them. Perhaps it is helpful for me to remember that although I try to love with the love of Christ, no human will ever be able to love to the degree that God loves. So, does this mean that I can't reconcile grace and truth as I love my enemies?