Mysticism

[ITS]

What are the best and worst aspects of mysticism, and which insight could you apply to your life?

[Stephanie]

Mystical Spirituality, as addressed in lectures thirteen through sixteen was of great interest to me. I believe this is the direction that our culture today is moving toward. More and more people are looking to an immediate experience to define their spirituality.
I think that there is an attraction to this type of Mystical Spirituality because there is little definition on God and more focus is placed on the feeling that is being experienced. The union that takes place Mystically is a “feeling” of Gods’ presence. God shows Himself through an experience rather than reason.

:roll: [/list]

[Kenneth]

What are the best and worst aspects of mysticism, and which insight could you apply to your life?
Reply:
Mystics endeavor to encounter God individually, and they long to have an intimate relationship with the Creator. Also, they stress on efforts and invent methods of achieving their ultimate goal of union with God. These are the best parts of mysticism-an insightful aspect of mysticism.
On the other hand, mystics pay too much attention on individual experience, and might neglect the Bible as guidance in the search of their mystical union with God. This mystical union involves four stages (Lillis, John R., A Study Guide, p.31) and these concepts are lack of scriptural support. In simple terms, mysticism is a self-centered concept of spiritual formation.

[Kenneth]

Mystical Spirituality, as addressed in lectures thirteen through sixteen was of great interest to me. I believe this is the direction that our culture today is moving toward. More and more people are looking to an immediate experience to define their spirituality.
I think that there is an attraction to this type of Mystical Spirituality because there is little definition on God and more focus is placed on the feeling that is being experienced. The union that takes place Mystically is a “feeling” of Gods’ presence. God shows Himself through an experience rather than reason.

:roll: [/list]
Comment:
In responding to Stephanie?s comment, dated February 10th 2003, I agree with her observation- ?the direction that our culture today is moving toward? mystical spirituality. Nowadays, people talk about their own personal spiritual experiences or journeys, and some famous ones have become ?gurus? or masters in this arena.
As a Christian, one must continue to have spiritual experience with the Lord; in other words, striving for and maintaining an intimate personal relationship with the Lord is very important. But, one should not rely solely on their own spiritual experiences. What mysticism lacks of is a sound biblical and theological structure!

[ron]

Mystical Spirituality, as addressed in lectures thirteen through sixteen was of great interest to me. I believe this is the direction that our culture today is moving toward. More and more people are looking to an immediate experience to define their spirituality.
I think that there is an attraction to this type of Mystical Spirituality because there is little definition on God and more focus is placed on the feeling that is being experienced. The union that takes place Mystically is a “feeling” of Gods’ presence. God shows Himself through an experience rather than reason.

:roll: [/list]

I would fully agree with Stephanie in that mystical spirituality is attractive to our culture. I see it supported in music, art and television where everyone from Brittany Spears to Matt Lauer talk about spiritual matters. However, what is usually stressed is more of a mystic union with God and if you just go deep enough within yourself you will find your God. I think this points to Romans 1:19-20 where Paul states that everyone can see that God is power and divine in nature. Unfortunately people have a difficult time believing that this is God, and they approach the mystical aspects of "fanning the flame" as Dr. Lillis points out.

[PT]

Of the posts currently listed, I agree with this one the most! Mystics are very subjective, do my own thing and no one can really tell me it does not work, because it works for me. On the other hand, what they have taught me is that the pace of our society is to fast, I need, and we as a faith community need to slow down and enjoy the presence of God. This can be done without disregard to scripture and its teachings. Most of my "best" moments with God in the last several years were more contemplative (even in groups) that "celebrative" with the folks who appear to worship the worship time, for example.

[ajwylie1]

What are the best and worst aspects of mysticism, and which insight could you apply to your life?

The best aspects of mysticism is that you can find all your answers of what believe in yourself. This would be good because we would be able to blame ourselves if we were not satisfied with our inner-self. The funny thing is that I would also say this is the worst aspect of mysticism. Can you imagine trying to find God by going inward and never seeking outward. I could never imagine trying to find God looking into my depraved life, but I can imagine finding God in creation and through others whom are seeking to be like God.

[PT]

The best aspect of this theology is that it slows us down, demands that we reflect on our personal journey, and frees us to do a better job of listening for what God might be saying to us through His word and prayer as we are silent before Him. The worst aspect of mysticism is a much longer list that would include hyper-individualism, hearing God through feelings (some that cannot be expressed!), and the personal quest for estactic union with God or "godness". In my opinion, it borders on being a works-based cult.

[brenda]

The best and worst aspect of Mysticism is the view of God. The Mystic sees God as from "within." God can be attained by the individual's effort. The Mystic says that God is everywhere, in nature and in us, as God's creation. Jesus was an example of one who went on the Mystic journey and little is said about the necessity of Jesus' sacrifice.

The Mystic view of God is dangerous and unbiblical. God is distinct from his creation; He is the creator and we are his creation. Yet, God created us and the world out of love. He sent Jesus to atone for our sins and to bridge the gap between us and God, so that we can have a personal relationship with God, as Father. The Mystic downplays Jesus' story (his life, death, and resurrection) which is an essential element of the Christion faith. Jesus is our personal Savior, the perfect Lamb, that reconciled us to God, without Jesus we can't have eternal life with God.

On the flip side, the Mystic's idea that God is "within" can be a good thing. Because of Jesus' death for us, we can have a relationship with God through Jesus. When we believe that we are "in Christ," we have God's grace and strength to live life as Jesus did.

For me, by studying the Bible and learning who I am in Christ I can have hope in my future, strength in times of trial, comfort when I'm alone, peace in his presence, and an assurance that I'm His child.

[PT]

Well put Brenda, I agree with you on most every count. I do however think that the "up-side" of what we can learn from the mystics without embracing their theolgy could bring systematic theolgy guys like me a little frredom to pursue God outside any little box I have put Him in, only to recognize God's pursuit of us, correct theology and all. I fear that I take to much comfort in simply believing the right things, without always allowing those right things to bring me to the abundant life God calls us to. PT

[brenda]

[quote="PT"]Well put Brenda, I agree with you on most every count. I do however think that the "up-side" of what we can learn from the mystics without embracing their theolgy could bring systematic theolgy guys like me a little frredom to pursue God outside any little box I have put Him in, only to recognize God's pursuit of us, correct theology and all. I fear that I take to much comfort in simply believing the right things, without always allowing those right things to bring me to the abundant life God calls us to.

Thanks for the input PT, I love your point that God pursues us. He can be knocking on our door for years before He gets our attention. I think it's so important to pay attention to what He's trying to teach us in order to find the freedom that He has for us. It's a constant struggle against our selfish nature to listen and to obey Him.

I think that the abundant life may not necessarily always be comfortable. It's when we're being used by God and He's stretching us that we are abundant through Him. We have to get out of our comfort zone and obey Him at times when we really would rather sit back and relax. I've heard that I can believe things in my mind but until I believe things in my heart, it's difficult to step out. That's why it's so great that God continually pursues us and keeps telling us His truth so we really can have abundancy.

[CKaiser501]

The worst aspects of mysticism are the sense of futility as the individual ventures through the various levels of prayer in their assent to God. The process seems to have no life or relationship that would motivate the individual on the journey. The sense of disillusionment can be great if the individual does not have the ?anticipated experience?. After all, we do all fall short of our own efforts

The best part of mysticism is that God is separate from us and has provided the Word as a guide to help us know Him relationally and provide principles by which we are to live. At the very heart, is the desire to know God, and seek ways to know on a deeper level.

This information was helpful for me to have a greater understanding of some of the mystical elements that are in the Bible. The discussion on the disciplines and Eph. 4:11-16 caused me to evaluate the structure and motives of my ministry context and move toward the corporate goal of building up the Body.

[CKaiser501]

The best and worst aspect of Mysticism is the view of God. The Mystic sees God as from "within." God can be attained by the individual's effort. The Mystic says that God is everywhere, in nature and in us, as God's creation. Jesus was an example of one who went on the Mystic journey and little is said about the necessity of Jesus' sacrifice.

The Mystic view of God is dangerous and unbiblical. God is distinct from his creation; He is the creator and we are his creation. Yet, God created us and the world out of love. He sent Jesus to atone for our sins and to bridge the gap between us and God, so that we can have a personal relationship with God, as Father. The Mystic downplays Jesus' story (his life, death, and resurrection) which is an essential element of the Christion faith. Jesus is our personal Savior, the perfect Lamb, that reconciled us to God, without Jesus we can't have eternal life with God.

On the flip side, the Mystic's idea that God is "within" can be a good thing. Because of Jesus' death for us, we can have a relationship with God through Jesus. When we believe that we are "in Christ," we have God's grace and strength to live life as Jesus did.

For me, by studying the Bible and learning who I am in Christ I can have hope in my future, strength in times of trial, comfort when I'm alone, peace in his presence, and an assurance that I'm His child.

I agree with Brenda. My hope is in a God who made the supreme sacrifice for me. God?s grace freely given to us gives me the freedom to love and serve Him and His family with renewed passion. Going through the prayers in an assent to God would not be a road that I would choose. No matter how hard we try, we will never become God.

[Alex]

What are the best and worst aspects of mysticism, and which insight could you apply to your life?

The mystical union with God seems to be the best aspect of mysticism. I believe this spiritual concept is paramount not only to mystics themselves, but also to Christian adherents. It reinforces the biblical idea of the immanence of God, so that God is the Source and without Him we can do nothing (John 15). Through this concept one could establish a deeper walk with God, an insight that is applicable to Christian life. Yet, having said that, biblically God is not only immanent but also transcendent. He is in us and also for us. To this regard, I think that the mystical view of salvation (or union with God), as strickly a human endeavor is disastrous, at best. Because this idea relegates the ontological and historical importance of Christology (Christ's incarnation, death, and resurrection, which are central to Christianity), it could generate a false hope of salvation.

[Frank]

I have a hard time with mysticism, probably mostly because I don?t have never really experienced any overtly mystical experiences. Now this is not to say that I do not believe that God?s revelation in its entirety is not a mystical in one sense, but I do not put the scripture, Jesus or any other revelation of God as it is told within the Biblical narrative inside of the mystical genre of modern mysticism. I believe that my very relationship with God is an extremely mystical experience, as well as personal and powerful?but empirically unobservable to those around me and outside of a biblical description, ineffable. What I believe to be the mysticism that this question is referring is the modern phenomenon of tongues, healings, prophecy, pandemonium, holy laughter and etc., or even the contemplative mysticism of transformational meditation or the Catholic ideas behind transubstantiation, saint worship or etc. With that out of the way I will answer the question at hand.

I believe one the worst aspect of mysticism is that of its exclusivity. I believe that those who have no mystical experiences and fail to make them appear become disenfranchised within the faith and ultimately lose hope in the faith of those who have the gifts. Another problem is that it may inspire false gifts, false gifts ?created? by the one participating. I believe the human mind is very capable of believing itself into acting out a mystical experience. In my opinion at that point it becomes a futile existential experience and has no value to God whatsoever. Mostly, I believe it takes the peoples focus off the Word of God, and ultimately Christ, as the final revelation of God, thereby watering down the potency of scripture in the life of the mystic.

I guess I could apply the laying on of hands to my life. While I?m not sure if this can be distinguished as a ?mystical? thing, I believe there is great power in the act of touching another human being. I believe as a body of Christ we should show physical affection. I also believe that healing may occur through this act (although I do not know how, do not believe I control it by my demand to God to heal, nor through the strength of my faith). I may like to adopt meditation a bit more. I think quiet time with God is important and meditation on God?s Word may be important in my life (but this is not to say that serious and diligent study of the scriptures is not a strong mandate from God as well).

[Peter]

One of the best aspects of mysticism is its emphasis on a relationship with God. While the mystics did not go about developing that relationship in a biblical way, they show that they love God deeply enough to desire to develop a relationship with Him. One of the worst aspects of mysticism is the depiction of God in mystical literature as being above and beyond being, and thus above love and affection. I want to continue to develop my relationship with God, not just get to know more about Him.

[rxwaves]

I agree with Frank that there is a mystical part to our relationship with God. Although other Christians are often able to discern real belief from unbelief, much of a Christian's relationship with God is immeasurable and invisible. I also agree that mysticism within the framework of Christianity is great.

But mysticism troubles me when it is outside the bounds of Christianity. This looking within oneself to find God and the emphasis on a personal mystical experience are bizarre. Also, the fact that higher levels of mystical prayer become more and more passive stands opposed to Christian beliefs.

[Peter]

I have a hard time with mysticism, probably mostly because I don?t have never really experienced any overtly mystical experiences. Now this is not to say that I do not believe that God?s revelation in its entirety is not a mystical in one sense, but I do not put the scripture, Jesus or any other revelation of God as it is told within the Biblical narrative inside of the mystical genre of modern mysticism. I believe that my very relationship with God is an extremely mystical experience, as well as personal and powerful?but empirically unobservable to those around me and outside of a biblical description, ineffable. What I believe to be the mysticism that this question is referring is the modern phenomenon of tongues, healings, prophecy, pandemonium, holy laughter and etc., or even the contemplative mysticism of transformational meditation or the Catholic ideas behind transubstantiation, saint worship or etc. With that out of the way I will answer the question at hand.

I believe one the worst aspect of mysticism is that of its exclusivity. I believe that those who have no mystical experiences and fail to make them appear become disenfranchised within the faith and ultimately lose hope in the faith of those who have the gifts. Another problem is that it may inspire false gifts, false gifts ?created? by the one participating. I believe the human mind is very capable of believing itself into acting out a mystical experience. In my opinion at that point it becomes a futile existential experience and has no value to God whatsoever. Mostly, I believe it takes the peoples focus off the Word of God, and ultimately Christ, as the final revelation of God, thereby watering down the potency of scripture in the life of the mystic.

I guess I could apply the laying on of hands to my life. While I?m not sure if this can be distinguished as a ?mystical? thing, I believe there is great power in the act of touching another human being. I believe as a body of Christ we should show physical affection. I also believe that healing may occur through this act (although I do not know how, do not believe I control it by my demand to God to heal, nor through the strength of my faith). I may like to adopt meditation a bit more. I think quiet time with God is important and meditation on God?s Word may be important in my life (but this is not to say that serious and diligent study of the scriptures is not a strong mandate from God as well).

Frank?s comment about the human mind seems true in light of its fallen nature. I would also add that it is possible for someone to be influenced by Satan while believing that they are having a mystical experience (2 Corinthians 11:14). That is why all who truly want to be in ?union with Christ? must be on guard and ?test the spirits? to see whether they are from God (1 John 4:1). And, as Frank indicated, that test is to compare the claims that are made with the word of God, which is to be the ultimate authority.

[william johnson]

What are the best and worst aspects of mysticism, and which insight could you apply to your life?

As much as I do not want to admit it, I find the concept of mysticism quite attractive. As a person who often seeks God intellectually, I find myself longing to meet God experiencially. I want to feel Him and experience Him in a deep, meaningful and intimate way. The mystic viewpoint leads me in that direction. God is a god who wants to be known and experienced. He wants us to "drink Him in" and experience all that He is and all the He can be in union with us. Mysticism points us in that direction.

Now, it also has a dark side. Experience without substance and doctrine is quite dangerous. Second, we can fall into the trap of wanting to "feel" God and forgeting the deep truths that are true whether we feel them or not. If taken in appropriate measure and balanced with doctrine and spiritual disciplines, mysticism can play an important part in our spiritual development.

[william johnson]

One of the best aspects of mysticism is its emphasis on a relationship with God. While the mystics did not go about developing that relationship in a biblical way, they show that they love God deeply enough to desire to develop a relationship with Him. One of the worst aspects of mysticism is the depiction of God in mystical literature as being above and beyond being, and thus above love and affection. I want to continue to develop my relationship with God, not just get to know more about Him.

Peter, I agree with the first part of your statement, but I have questions about the second part. It is my understanding that the mystics attempt to find God within themselves. They do not see God as outside and above, but internal and within. They bring God down to a base "human" level, by pursuing Him within themselves. It is more of a Carl Barth view that God is so high above us that we cannot know him?

[tdecker]

What are the best and worst aspects of mysticism, and which insight could you apply to your life?

In my opinion, the best aspect of mysticism is the intentional fostering of a relationship with God. In our culture, we tend to move at such a fast pace, that we fail to slow down long enough to focus on God.
The worst aspect of myticism may be the view that God is an impersonal basis of all being. On the contrary, God is a personal being who desires to have relationship with those who would call upon His name. A second pitfall of mysticism is the entirely individualistic perspective. It leaves no room for corporate spiritual development.

[tiffanypencak]

There is also a deep aspect of fulfillment through mystical actions--one can follow the steps and receive the predictable "union of God". In another aspect it is not an easy journey, but one that takes a HUGE committment of peace, tranquility, reflection, and countless meditation. I would assume a feeling of anxiety might try to sneak in due to the feelings of not accelerating in spiritual "oneness" as fast as one ought. There is a huge emphasis in the immanence of God, yet, I get the impression he is very distant and far from one's true heart. This is because he is not a Savior, a Father, a Friend. A confident balance is required to achieve a true, religious experience--mystical or not. I agree that mysticism is leaking into most every aspect of our culture. From new age religions to even the church pulpit--an emphasis on inner self as the ultimate instrument of spiritual growth is being emphasized. Yet, we know that scripture emphasizes the unity of the body of believers as this universal tool for one's spiritual life and growth

Mystical Spirituality, as addressed in lectures thirteen through sixteen was of great interest to me. I believe this is the direction that our culture today is moving toward. More and more people are looking to an immediate experience to define their spirituality.
I think that there is an attraction to this type of Mystical Spirituality because there is little definition on God and more focus is placed on the feeling that is being experienced. The union that takes place Mystically is a “feeling” of Gods’ presence. God shows Himself through an experience rather than reason.

:roll: [/list]

[awells]

The topic of mysticism was appropriately emphasised in the lectures. I say this because a lot of people I know would fall under this type of spirituality and not under the classical evangelical spirituality. It was interesting to hear how close mysticism is to evangelical spirituality. It is also scary to think that the majority of churchs today practice some form of this.
One of the reasons that I think that Mysticism is so popular is because it allows personal experience to trump reason. It is this personal experience that is crutical to the mysitcal relationship with God.

[nathanthiry]

The best aspects of mysticism are the focus on union with God and prayer. We are indeed united with God through faith in Christ, and I have been greatly encouraged through the writings of some faithful Christian mystics, like Andrew Murray, to enjoy communion with God and to engage in active prayer. This strength of mysticism is proportional to the degree to which these two elements are informed by Scripture. If union with God is not seen as an ontological union, but rather a relational communion through Christ, than it is wonderful. If prayer is seen as praise and petition, confession and adoration, all in response to who God has revealed Himself to be in Scripture, than it is great.

The worst aspects of mysticism are the lack of focus on the importance of Christ's substitionary atonement, the use of God's Word in prayer and communion, and the synthesis of Biblical Christianity with classical mysticism. If we make effort to have union with God through meditation and prayer, but we do not acknowledge our sin and the riches of grace that we have in Christ, than we fail in having true communion with God. Likewise, if prayer is a contrived effort to reach God and is not a response to His revelation, than it is not fruitful prayer.

I appreciate the Mystic elements in Biblical Christianity, and I like the reminder to draw near to God and fellowship with Him. However, Dr. Lillis is so correct to say that we do not need a synthesis of Christianity and mysticism. We only need to follow God's leading as He has revealed Himself in Scripture.

[nathanthiry]

Alex, I appreciate your post. I think you are so right to say that this dependence on God for all of life and an attempt to live out John 15 can be positive elements of mysticism. I also share your concern that it seems to be devoid of an emphasis on the historical work of Christ and our need for Him to be able to relate rightly to God.

[awells]

Tiffany,
I think that you are right. The Mystical aspects of spirituality are leaking into every aspect of culture including the church pulpit. I agree with you about the immanence of God and its growing appricaition. I would add therre is also a growing emphasis on the mystery of who God is and I think that this could be taken in a wrong way and be labled as mysticism.

[Sean_Z]

I really don’t have a problem with mysticism other than if people think they can have an experience with God or God the Father apart from God the Son mediated through God the Spirit. The other contention I would have is where experience trumps the Scripture. I believe our experience is important, it can do one of two things: It can drive our exegesis or it can drive us to exegesis. Let me explain. I heard a radio program where a grief-stricken mother had a son who was serving life for murder. She said that God was not to blame for this because God doesn’t know the future. Now, I don’t know her pain. It must be pretty tough to have your child serving life, but in Isaiah God seems to by saying, “I know the future, unlike your idols, so turn to Me.” That would seem to rule out her exegesis. I can give you a personal example of the second one (experience drives us to exegesis). I hadn’t been getting much sleep when I was in school a couple years back and I remember being in the hall of school and looking down. It seemed as though the whole floor was alive and pulsing with ethereal like energy. The first thought that went through my head was, “This is the Holy Spirit!” But on later reflection, I realized the Bible says the Holy Spirit is immaterial and cannot be seen, only His effects (cf. Jn 3). The experience drove me to exegesis, but in the end it was the Bible, not my experience that determined my thinking (then I caught up on my sleep!).
The good aspects of mysticism is that for me, being rather doctrinal and cerebral, it forms a good foil for me and an area of growth. Actually, I am pursuing the contemplative life with a spiritual director. I probably will never be a true contemplative/mystic in the real sense of the word (too logical and precise, etc.), but it fills me out and completes my spirituality. As a correction, instead of seeking the steps of purgation, illumination, and union with God, I would offer justification, sanctification, and glorification as the steps to a Protestant mysticism (cf. Benner, 2002). Contemplative/centering prayer is a very powerful way to pray. I find that it really opens me up to the LORD and gives me a great sense of peace. Little by little, my contemplative prayer, in addition to my discursive prayer and Scripture reading, helps me to become a more balanced Christian. While not anti-intellectual or rational, it is the absence of rationalism and logic as you move into the realm of mystery. I believe the balance is where we should aim, combining doctrinal, pietistic, mystical/contemplative, and social justice spirituality all into one complete package.

[Gwen]

Most contemporary spiritual teachings maintain that when one comes to know the true nature of consciousness, one also comes to know God. If God is the essence of the whole of creation, then God is the essence of every creature, and every person. That perhaps this is why the search to discover the nature of one's own innermost essence is the search for God.

According to Matthew 3:16 (foundation for my beliefs and "the example - Christ Jesus" ), after Jesus was baptized, he came up out of the water right away. The sky opened. He saw the Spirit of God coming down on him like a dove. True spirituality is having the spirit of God descend upon you, being filled by God’s spirit in an amalgamation with God thru Christ Jesus. Ultimately replicating the qualities of God exemplified in Christ Jesus - with eyes ever and always on the Lord.

[Drew]

Most contemporary spiritual teachings maintain that when one comes to know the true nature of consciousness, one also comes to know God. If God is the essence of the whole of creation, then God is the essence of every creature, and every person. That perhaps this is why the search to discover the nature of one's own innermost essence is the search for God.

According to Matthew 3:16 (foundation for my beliefs and "the example - Christ Jesus" ), after Jesus was baptized, he came up out of the water right away. The sky opened. He saw the Spirit of God coming down on him like a dove. True spirituality is having the spirit of God descend upon you, being filled by God’s spirit in an amalgamation with God thru Christ Jesus. Ultimately replicating the qualities of God exemplified in Christ Jesus - with eyes ever and always on the Lord.

I love the idea of spirituality ascent the descent of the Divine. So often we hear the contrasting message -- spirituality as ascent. I few years back, I attended an inter-faith dialogue on the question of spirituality. A lot of what you find there (and in similar venues) revolves around the common mountain metaphor, where various spiritualities are claimed to be alternative paths to the same apex.

What Christianity (vis-à-vis Judaism) does, however, is it stands the mountain metaphor on end. From the Creation narrative onward, God appears as the One descending. God walks in the garden, God descends from Mt. Sinai to fill the tabernacle, God becomes man and tabernacles among us, the Spirit falls on Pentecost...

[Drew]

Should we be surprised to find sublimity and abasement side by side? How often do we encounter the apparent enmeshment of best and worst qualities? Do we not experience a similar dynamic as we attempt to live out our lives as simultaneously saint and sinner?

That said, I suggest that the appeal to—and the centrality of—experience in mysticism stands as both its best and worst aspect. Centuries of Christian mystics have affirmed our inability to know God apart from experience.

Arguably, all knowing involves experience; but this is clearly the case when we speaking of knowing God, the object/subject of our faith. And insofar as we encounter God, we do so through the dynamic interplay of Word and Spirit.

We run into trouble, however, when we seek to polarize these aspects of knowing, by objectifying God, embracing willy-nilly subjectivism, etc.

[awichterman]

Question 1

Dr. Lillis is indeed reacting to individualism. However, this does not necessarily mean that he overreacting. His emphasis on corporate spirituality is much needed in a day of rampant individualism. Mr. Lillis does account for the fact that a personal relationship with God is needed. In fact he comments on the importance of personal prayer and devotional time. He is not trying to rule out these things he is just trying to pull Christians back into the middle, away from being overly individualistic.

[Daniel B]

The best and worst aspect of Mysticism is the view of God. The Mystic sees God as from "within." God can be attained by the individual's effort. The Mystic says that God is everywhere, in nature and in us, as God's creation. Jesus was an example of one who went on the Mystic journey and little is said about the necessity of Jesus' sacrifice.

The Mystic view of God is dangerous and unbiblical. God is distinct from his creation; He is the creator and we are his creation. Yet, God created us and the world out of love. He sent Jesus to atone for our sins and to bridge the gap between us and God, so that we can have a personal relationship with God, as Father. The Mystic downplays Jesus' story (his life, death, and resurrection) which is an essential element of the Christion faith. Jesus is our personal Savior, the perfect Lamb, that reconciled us to God, without Jesus we can't have eternal life with God.

On the flip side, the Mystic's idea that God is "within" can be a good thing. Because of Jesus' death for us, we can have a relationship with God through Jesus. When we believe that we are "in Christ," we have God's grace and strength to live life as Jesus did.

For me, by studying the Bible and learning who I am in Christ I can have hope in my future, strength in times of trial, comfort when I'm alone, peace in his presence, and an assurance that I'm His child.


Brenda is right that mysticism can be dangerous. It seems to take the idea of God as “other” too far and to downplay the vast importance of Jesus’ death and resurrection as the core of our faith.
We must beware of the pendulum effect in which we go too far the other way, which many of our church traditions have done. We have a tendency to make God into a rational God, to put him into a box. And we sometimes think of God as only a personal God, turning him into our buddy instead of our Father and King. I would add to Brenda’s comment that it is good to have the view that God is transcendent, that he is the almighty maker of heaven and earth.

[Daniel B]

Mysticism is good in that it allows God to be God. It does not seek to confine him by trying to completely understand him. Furthermore, mysticism allows true contact with God, when a believer and God are in fellowship together. The problem comes when mystics attempt to meet God instead of knowing him through his word. Mysticism goes wrong when the goal is letting go of one’s body instead of meeting God.
American Christians need to make time to be silent and listen to God speak. Too often we are busy talking to him or doing things for him instead of being with him and listening.

[asksimon]

We need not be afraid of the mystical practices. Any movement toward a discipline of the Spirit is in the model of Christ & Paul,
who's walk matched their talk.

It would seem that the point of the mystical practices is to tame the flesh and bring it more in line with the purposes of the Spirit.

Skeptics would caution against the slippery slope of internal confirmation of the development of the Spirit. They might then suggest a retreat into the seemingly measureable boundaries of Scripture then advise, "if it feels good - don't do it."

The biblical record (when not looked through a theological microscope with a bent) is sure that a devotion to God is simultaneously personal (internal) and communial (for the blessing of all creation).

[smsurine]

Question 1

Dr. Lillis is indeed reacting to individualism. However, this does not necessarily mean that he overreacting. His emphasis on corporate spirituality is much needed in a day of rampant individualism. Mr. Lillis does account for the fact that a personal relationship with God is needed. In fact he comments on the importance of personal prayer and devotional time. He is not trying to rule out these things he is just trying to pull Christians back into the middle, away from being overly individualistic.

I think you're on to something with pulling Christians back into the middle. I think we can see a pendulum swing in just about every area of theology. For example, in the 70's and 80's the church seemed to shift heavily toward legalism, now the pendulum is swinging the other way toward the grace side.

I don't know if it's just a problem in Christianity or if it's a problem for humanity in general (at least in Western Society) - but we always tend to grab on to extremes.

In this case I think the middle ground is needed. Spirituality is not a solo thing, but it does need to have individual aspects.

[smsurine]

In the past few years I have realized more and more the importance of community for myself as a Christian. Nevertheless, I was struck hard by Dr. Lillis' argument that spiritual formation is a corporate entity, not an individual task. Initially I did not like this idea, but upon further evaluation I agreed with most of his premises.

Perhaps the reason why many Christians struggle to grow is that they think they are on their own in terms of connecting with God. Many fundamental evangelical churches push isolated prayer and personal Bible reading as the primary means of growth. Perhaps if finding ways to love, serve, and contribute to the whole of the church were emphasized, people would rely on the corporate strength of the church to grow and not just themselves.

At the same time, I wonder if Dr. Lillis does go too far. While he does mention personal acts of spiritual formation in his lectures, he definitely places the thrust and the accountability on the church. However, won't believers ultimately be held accountable for their own actions? It seems like Dr. Lillis is sending us in the right direction, but that he needs to leave some tension between the individual and the corporate dimensions of spirituality.

[shanevv]

Question #1 Does Dr. Lilis present a balanced view of the Christian life, or does his reaction against individualism give insufficient weight to our individual walk with God?

Provisionally, my short answer is no; he does not present a balanced view of the Christian life.

Dr. Lillis clearly seemed to focus upon the corporate emphasis of spiritual growth in the Bible. He exegeted familiar texts with an eye toward applying them to the whole body of Christ as opposed to each individual.

However, I am very greatful that he did. It was just what this Western Evangelical needed to wake me from my self-absorbed, individualistic Christian worldview. My eyes were opened to how important it is to focus upon the growth of the body every bit as much, if not more, than the individual and that I have been extremely neglectful of my obligations to the body from this stand point.

[shanevv]

In the past few years I have realized more and more the importance of community for myself as a Christian. Nevertheless, I was struck hard by Dr. Lillis' argument that spiritual formation is a corporate entity, not an individual task. Initially I did not like this idea, but upon further evaluation I agreed with most of his premises.

Perhaps the reason why many Christians struggle to grow is that they think they are on their own in terms of connecting with God. Many fundamental evangelical churches push isolated prayer and personal Bible reading as the primary means of growth. Perhaps if finding ways to love, serve, and contribute to the whole of the church were emphasized, people would rely on the corporate strength of the church to grow and not just themselves.

At the same time, I wonder if Dr. Lillis does go too far. While he does mention personal acts of spiritual formation in his lectures, he definitely places the thrust and the accountability on the church. However, won't believers ultimately be held accountable for their own actions? It seems like Dr. Lillis is sending us in the right direction, but that he needs to leave some tension between the individual and the corporate dimensions of spirituality.

I agree that Dr. Lillis heavily promotes the corporate aspects of spiritual growth while barely tipping his hat to the individual aspects. It also seems that churches do discuss and place some emphasis on catering to the individual needs of the church body as well as trying to spur individual spiritual growth.

Do you think Western cultures like America have an unbalanced practice and focus on individual growth while Easter cultures like the Middle East have n unbalanced practice and focus on corporate growth? How could the tension you referred to be instituted so that a medium balance between corporate and individual growth can be realized?

[ChLanders]

Some benefits of mysticism include the portrayal of God as infinite and beyond human comprehension, like in the writings of Pseudo-Dionysius. How can the finite truly understand the infinite? And the more we progress toward God, the more words fail to describe him and only the experience of an encounter with the Divine remains.
Thus, mysticism displays a needed aspect of experience in the process of Christian faith. I also particularly find encouragement in the mystics descriptions of love and contemplation in God. I can see how a evangelical person could apply this to his/her life by seeking to experience God in a love relationship with Christ.
However, the progression up a ladder to union with God, thus losing oneself by emerging into the stream of God, is basically a typical eastern religion like Buddhism. In Buddhism the individual progresses upward by meditation in order to find enlightenment and union back into the stream of life. One must empty oneself to become one. One of the illustrations Buddha uses is about a drop that merges back into the river, or a light ray proceeding back to the sun. This path is done by meditation and solitude, slowly letting go of oneself until he or she breaks the path of rebirth becoming one with the “force” so to speak.
Overall, mysticism is dangerous and should be dealt with cautiously.

[ChLanders]

tdecker
Junior Member

In my opinion, the best aspect of mysticism is the intentional fostering of a relationship with God. In our culture, we tend to move at such a fast pace, that we fail to slow down long enough to focus on God.
The worst aspect of myticism may be the view that God is an impersonal basis of all being. On the contrary, God is a personal being who desires to have relationship with those who would call upon His name. A second pitfall of mysticism is the entirely individualistic perspective. It leaves no room for corporate spiritual development.
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Yes, I would agree to that response, mysticism emphasizes that a person set aside time for God. As far as relationship, they would view it more as union and a journey to become one with Him, where actually becomes God, instead of two separate beings. An example would be a light beam that finds it way back to the sun. Furthermore, mysticism is individualistic for it is the path of the individual’s pursuit to union with God.

[stephen]

Mystics have a great desire to seek after God and to know Him. This idea is consistent with scripture in that we are commanded to "humble ourselves and pray" and to "seek Him with a whole heart", etc. They are willing to become unattached to the world in order to rid themselves of anything that would hinder their pursuit. Mystics set an example for us to follow of someone who is devoted to this pursuit, and this can be applied to our lives.

In my opinion, the worst aspect of mysticism is their theology. Pursuing "the God within" can be very misleading. Though we are told that the Holy Spirit "will be in you," and in another place that the "Spirit of Christ" lives within us, SOME mystics seem to miss the essential element for this indwelling to take place, and that is salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Therefore, pursuing God without Christ is no relationship with God at all, according to scripture, as He is the only way to God. Consequently, one could be pursuing mysticism void of Christ and salvation, and whatever "God experience" they have would not be from God, but anti-God. There becomes then no difference between this kind of mysticism and the pursuit of a god through false religion.

[stephen]

I have a hard time with mysticism, probably mostly because I don?t have never really experienced any overtly mystical experiences. Now this is not to say that I do not believe that God?s revelation in its entirety is not a mystical in one sense, but I do not put the scripture, Jesus or any other revelation of God as it is told within the Biblical narrative inside of the mystical genre of modern mysticism. I believe that my very relationship with God is an extremely mystical experience, as well as personal and powerful?but empirically unobservable to those around me and outside of a biblical description, ineffable. What I believe to be the mysticism that this question is referring is the modern phenomenon of tongues, healings, prophecy, pandemonium, holy laughter and etc., or even the contemplative mysticism of transformational meditation or the Catholic ideas behind transubstantiation, saint worship or etc. With that out of the way I will answer the question at hand.

I want to respond specifically to Frank's statement which seemed to categorize anything not widely accepted by mainstream Christianity ("the modern phenomenon of tongues, healings, prophecy, pandemonium, holy laughter and etc") as mysticism. First, I don't believe we are considering mysticism here as anything that is a mystery to us. We are specifically dealing with mysticism as defined in this course. Having said that, let me digress for a moment to consider Frank's statement.

The elements mentioned are generally associated with Pentecostal and Charismatic movements. Frank mentioned that the very revelation of God is a mystery in a sense, and I would suggest these elements be included in this "general" sense, NOT as mysticism. Whether one believes that these manifestations are for today or not, we can all search the entirety of scripture and find that when God's Spirit moved upon an individual, something out of the ordinary happened. Examples could include Saul who prophesied, David who danced, Elijah who ran, the many healed by Jesus and the apostles, tongues, etc. The apostles even prayed that their ministry would be followed by signs and wonders to confirm their words. Consequently, there is biblical support for such "phenomenon." Obviously, they are a mystery to anyone who has not experienced them, but I would suggest they remain a mystery to those who have, just as the revelation of God remains a mystery to those who by faith have chosen to believe in the mystery.

Finally, to identify the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements with mysticism would be incorrect. Most of these groups would clearly fall within the scope of orthodoxy when it comes to the foundations of the Christian faith, especially the Trinitarians. I believe all would emphasize salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ (contrary to mysticism), and all would attempt to establish their doctrine upon the Word of God. Consequently, there are more similarities with mainstream Christianity than differences. Furthermore, mystery does not equal mysticism. However, the differences are found in understanding what we believe about the Spirit's work in us today, individually and corporately, what is defined as Spirit and what is flesh, and how much order is placed upon it. Paul addressed this to the Corinthians, and we must continue to address it today.

[stephen]

I have a hard time with mysticism, probably mostly because I don?t have never really experienced any overtly mystical experiences. Now this is not to say that I do not believe that God?s revelation in its entirety is not a mystical in one sense, but I do not put the scripture, Jesus or any other revelation of God as it is told within the Biblical narrative inside of the mystical genre of modern mysticism. I believe that my very relationship with God is an extremely mystical experience, as well as personal and powerful?but empirically unobservable to those around me and outside of a biblical description, ineffable. What I believe to be the mysticism that this question is referring is the modern phenomenon of tongues, healings, prophecy, pandemonium, holy laughter and etc., or even the contemplative mysticism of transformational meditation or the Catholic ideas behind transubstantiation, saint worship or etc. With that out of the way I will answer the question at hand.

I want to respond specifically to Frank's statement which seemed to categorize anything not widely accepted by mainstream Christianity ("the modern phenomenon of tongues, healings, prophecy, pandemonium, holy laughter and etc") as mysticism. First, I don't believe we are considering mysticism here as anything that is a mystery to us. We are specifically dealing with mysticism as defined in this course. Having said that, let me digress for a moment to consider Frank's statement.

The elements mentioned are generally associated with Pentecostal and Charismatic movements. Frank mentioned that the very revelation of God is a mystery in a sense, and I would suggest these elements be included in this "general" sense, NOT as mysticism. Whether one believes that these manifestations are for today or not, we can all search the entirety of scripture and find that when God's Spirit moved upon an individual, something out of the ordinary happened. Examples could include Saul who prophesied, David who danced, Elijah who ran, the many healed by Jesus and the apostles, tongues, etc. The apostles even prayed that their ministry would be followed by signs and wonders to confirm their words. Consequently, there is biblical support for such "phenomenon." Obviously, they are a mystery to anyone who has not experienced them, but I would suggest they remain a mystery to those who have, just as the revelation of God remains a mystery to those who by faith have chosen to believe in the mystery.

Finally, to identify the Pentecostal or Charismatic movements with mysticism would be incorrect. Most of these groups would clearly fall within the scope of orthodoxy when it comes to the foundations of the Christian faith, especially the Trinitarians. I believe all would emphasize salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ (contrary to mysticism), and all would attempt to establish their doctrine upon the Word of God. Consequently, there are more similarities with mainstream Christianity than differences. Furthermore, mystery does not equal mysticism. However, the differences are found in understanding what we believe about the Spirit's work in us today, individually and corporately, what is defined as Spirit and what is flesh, and how much order is placed upon it. Paul addressed this to the Corinthians, and we must continue to address it today.

[Hardy]

I agree with Frank that there is a mystical part to our relationship with God. Although other Christians are often able to discern real belief from unbelief, much of a Christian's relationship with God is immeasurable and invisible. I also agree that mysticism within the framework of Christianity is great.

But mysticism troubles me when it is outside the bounds of Christianity. This looking within oneself to find God and the emphasis on a personal mystical experience are bizarre. Also, the fact that higher levels of mystical prayer become more and more passive stands opposed to Christian beliefs.

Rxwaves is right in discussing the danger of looking to find God within oneself. This self-centered mentality is unbiblical and can lead others astray. While Jesus Christ does abide in those who follow him, the focus of this followership is toward God and not man. It seems that mysticism stresses the focus on man which leads to a transforming union with God where one may actually become God. Again, Scripture provides no warrant for this belief.

[David E. Garcia]

Mysticism is wonderful and has done so much for the body of Christ. The apostles had deep, mystical experiences. Peter and his visions in Acts 10-12 and Paul with his guidance by God through the mystical are two central figures in Christianity who experienced the mystical. Even Christ himself was deeply entrenched in the heavenly world while he walked on earth. And the examples abound through history of those who have been deeply mystical and benefited the Church of the Lord. It is through the unexplicable that we connect with God. Christians need not be afraid of mysticism.
The main negative aspect of mysticism is when believers only seek these amazing experiences. They can make the experiential their god. If they do not have these elated experiences, they feel spiritually inferior or desserted by God. Paul in his letter to the Corinthians said he had mystical experiences that were too profound to even verbalize. Nontheless his main joy and boast was that he was serving the Lord and building up the body of Christ. He said in Philippians that all of his experiences and accomplishments meant nothing, "compared to the excellent greatness of knowing Christ for whose sake I have lost ALL THINGS." (Philippians 3:8)
This is the best and worst of mysticism.

[David E. Garcia]

Daniel, I appreciate your response. There are believers in other parts of the world that define "mysticism" differently, because for them, having visions, supernatural guidance, miraculous provision, and the healing virtue of Christ is absolutely NORMAL. There is nothing mysterious about it! Jesus said he was for believers and he wants to give them them abundant living through the infusion of his divine nature, and they just believe it so (and experience it so.) What is mysterious and strange to so many believers in other parts of the world is when God is not experienced in this fashion.
When I read the Bible, I am dumbfounded that in Acts 12, Peter could still not tell the difference between an angel and a vision. Furthermore, the believers in Rhoda's house could not tell the difference between Peter and an angel. Implicit in the text is the fact that these early believers were so accustomed to supernatural occurences, they treated them as day-to-day events. They didn't stop and publish a book "When I encountered an Angel" and make the New York Times best-selling list.
Furthermore, Paul, who was a master-thelogian/ missionary/ evangelist/ miracle-worker extraordinaire, was also deeply mystical. His knowledge didn't snuff out his ability to experience God in dramatic fashion. Neither did his powerful visions and divine encounters make him the lead, goof-ball in LaLa-Land. There was that wonderful marriage of knowledge on fire.